Not discounting your experience; how many of those self inflicted wounds came at the cause of an "un-cocked" SA/DA pistol?
help selecting a concealble 9mm handgun
- Thread starter MadJax
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Not discounting your experience; how many of those self inflicted wounds came at the cause of an "un-cocked" SA/DA pistol?
Since most the guys lied about how it happened despite having holes in their pants? I couldn't say. I think most frequently it happened under stress when they were attempting to draw or re pocket the weapon. They were all people that most likely engaged in side walk pharmacopoeia sales. In every case someone was exchanging gunfire with them. But seriously why would you defend this practice?
Dave
Edited to add, the guy shot himself the nuts after he held up a Circle K I forgot about. He wasn't being shot at. He was in a hurry to get away after pistol whipping the crap out of the clerk.
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Dave
Edited to add, the guy shot himself the nuts after he held up a Circle K I forgot about. He wasn't being shot at. He was in a hurry to get away after pistol whipping the crap out of the clerk.
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I'm not defending the practice anymore. I know it exists as probably necessary for people for various reasons, like those who are obese for one. I would NEVER stick a locked and cocked striker fire pistol in my pants without a holster with a trigger guard and good retention capabilities. But there is no doubt, that an un-cocked DA/SA pistol; and even revolvers, is no where near the threat of ND as a striker fire pistol. And though an un-cocked DA/SA pistol is not as ready for as rapid deployment as a cocked striker fire pistol, it is safer in the pants without a holster. I think it is important to make the distinction.
Again I'll state, if I can't hack the cocked G-19 for a very compelling physical reason, I will never opt for that pistol in the pocket without a holster.
No one was debating the silliness of it. As I said, some people are going to do it regardless, whether they are ignorant, unsafe, or physically have no choice. But if you think that a 10 lb. factory un-cocked DA trigger pull makes a gun go boom easier than a 4 lb. cocked striker fire, your off your game.
I did it for 8 years! I had no issues! I am going to a g-19. I have no issues! I will be aiming it at my nuts. I have no issues. I never said you were stupid, I said there is a scientific difference in one being slightly safer to carry in certain cases despite the practices' merits.
Since most ND's occur when a carrier re-holsters his/her pistol, I simply said that an un-cocked DA trigger needs more accommodating circumstances to fire than a SF. Now that restated, it is not the most defense ready position to be in if you really are preparing yourself for a statistically very unlikely 3 second DFE. But there is prepared and there is less prepared. You know the difference!
NDs happen at ONE and only ONE crucial point and that's when somebody handles a gun in an unsafe manner and inputs a trigger. They aren't accidents or acts of god. They are willful acts of negligence. And I disagree with our assessment of when they happen; time and time again I have seen them from shooters with guns drawn in some semblance of a low ready and for whatever inoperable excuse they couldn't follow a simple rule and keep their finger off the trigger, out of the trigger guard and indexed on the slide with positive pressure. Typically said shooter is then bumped or startled and pop.
Okay! I got it! Now let's take your absolutely factual account of ND's. In these factual examples, and since they do happen; which gun needs less trigger pressure applied to fire?
If you answer it honestly and with science as your guide; that was all I was saying.
Did that Sig make me feel subconsciously safer? Sure. I pretended that I would have enough time to deploy that weapon if necessary, and either manually cock that hammer in the ready position or deploy and try to pretend that I would be cognizant enough to remember to pull that DA trigger all the way to start things off; all while either being shot at, or threatened with death, or having my wife and kids next to me, or any and all other DFE scenarios. You know, fairy tale superhero stuff.
I have never met a non-handicapped human being over the age of 8 that has any issue functioning either trigger under stress. I have also never met anyone who used one under stress (be it in a gunfight or ND as a result of contact or startle) that noticed the weight of the trigger. I have also seen far more ND's with The Beretta 92FS than I have with Glocks or M&Ps the two Striker Platforms I am around the most. Further more I have never seen anyone have an almost ND as in they were spooked and started to press the trigger but realized what they were doing and thanks to the saving grace of a long DA Pull they were able to bailout and prevent an ND.
To summarize; keeping your finger off the trigger and out of the trigger guard, indexed on the ejection port with positive pressure, unless actively engaging a target, using safe holsters, and following established, safe, re-holstering procedures will guarantee that you don't have an ND. Placing your faith in a longer, heavier trigger pull might sorta some of the time possibly maybe work. Putting any faith in the second solution seems dumb when the first is guaranteed.
To summarize; keeping your finger off the trigger and out of the trigger guard, indexed on the ejection port with positive pressure, unless actively engaging a target, using safe holsters, and following established, safe, re-holstering procedures will guarantee that you don't have an ND. Placing your faith in a longer, heavier trigger pull might sorta some of the time possibly maybe work. Putting any faith in the second solution seems dumb when the first is guaranteed.
SpeedRacer
Well-Known Member
It's like saying you're less likely to cheat on your wife if a woman has thicker panties on. If you've already made enough bad choices to get to that point, ain't no granny panties gonna stop the money shot, so you might as well pick one wearing a thong.
Hattrick 22
Well-Known Member
It's sort of like adopting a racoon you caught you already adopted one what harm is a whole family....
Well maybe not granny panties, but some strategically placed yellow and brown stains on the granny panties would defiantly act as a deterrent if I was involved.
Dave
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DthunderUSA
Member
Madjax,
I wanted to reply to your original post and try and give you a couple of my personal options. Trying to fit into your requirements, I believe there are several options for you to choose from. The first few that come to mind are the following:
Smith and Wesson M&P Shield 9mm - $390
Ruger SR9c - $420 (Sometimes cheaper)
Ruger LC9 - $370 give or take
Ruger LC9 with Lasermax - $420
Springfield Armory XD Sub Compact 9mm - $420 or so
Sig Sauer P250 Sub-Compact - $400 or so
This is not a complete roll-up of cheap guns but these are gun brands and styles that I believe meet your criteria. Magazine capacity varies, but should meet your basic requirements. All of these, I would consider concealable. I don't recommend carrying any gun without some type of holster. I didn't recommend the Glock 19, based on your grip preference. You should find most of these much more ergonomically comfortable. I don't have a personal preference with these guns. I own several of the guns listed and find that each of them are different but are very comfortable to handle and shoot.
Whatever you decide to buy, make sure you train with it as often as you can. Get yourself quality ammunition when you carry it for personal defense. I recommend Lehigh Defense Maximum Expansion Ammo or Liberty Ammunition Civil Defense. I like to think about ammo as being the other 50% solution to your problems. Don't cheap out on ammo.
I hope this helps and good luck with your search.
Sig Sauer P290 9mm - $420
Walther Arms CCP 9mm - $420
I wanted to reply to your original post and try and give you a couple of my personal options. Trying to fit into your requirements, I believe there are several options for you to choose from. The first few that come to mind are the following:
Smith and Wesson M&P Shield 9mm - $390
Ruger SR9c - $420 (Sometimes cheaper)
Ruger LC9 - $370 give or take
Ruger LC9 with Lasermax - $420
Springfield Armory XD Sub Compact 9mm - $420 or so
Sig Sauer P250 Sub-Compact - $400 or so
This is not a complete roll-up of cheap guns but these are gun brands and styles that I believe meet your criteria. Magazine capacity varies, but should meet your basic requirements. All of these, I would consider concealable. I don't recommend carrying any gun without some type of holster. I didn't recommend the Glock 19, based on your grip preference. You should find most of these much more ergonomically comfortable. I don't have a personal preference with these guns. I own several of the guns listed and find that each of them are different but are very comfortable to handle and shoot.
Whatever you decide to buy, make sure you train with it as often as you can. Get yourself quality ammunition when you carry it for personal defense. I recommend Lehigh Defense Maximum Expansion Ammo or Liberty Ammunition Civil Defense. I like to think about ammo as being the other 50% solution to your problems. Don't cheap out on ammo.
I hope this helps and good luck with your search.
Sig Sauer P290 9mm - $420
Walther Arms CCP 9mm - $420
I'm not even going to get into gimmick ammunitions that make claims that the laws of physics don't support. That should be another whole thread. Look ammunition is NOT 50% of the solution. Based on over 21 years in the field as a paramedic shot placement is the most important thing. A non expanding FMJ will kill you deader than heck if it's put in the right spot.
Basically there are no magic bullets. Handguns are not very powerful in grand scheme of things. Their ammunitions are limited by the ability to shoot them and carry them. The truth is that you can put all your handgun rounds into someplace that'll kill the bad guy and still get killed.
For ammunition just pick something that feeds reliably, is accurate, and will penetrate deep enough to hit vital spots.
Dave
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Basically there are no magic bullets. Handguns are not very powerful in grand scheme of things. Their ammunitions are limited by the ability to shoot them and carry them. The truth is that you can put all your handgun rounds into someplace that'll kill the bad guy and still get killed.
For ammunition just pick something that feeds reliably, is accurate, and will penetrate deep enough to hit vital spots.
Dave
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Wow thanks for having a list I am currently considering the m&p shield, Springfield Xd and the sig p290.
I am still considering the sr9c but have been warned against rugers by some people saying there unreliable or cheaply made its good to hear an opposing view.
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