Sandy Hook School shooting thread

[Gator 45/70]

Very True man +1
Every time the nut-job tries this at a police station...He get's the hell shot out of em'

Wow. Next time I will stay out.

I didn't say crime would be eliminated, didn't say a mass killing would never happen again or that a teacher could take on a skilled marksmen with an AR-15.

I said the crime triangle is altered by the risk of being confronted and the Government sucks at solving problems. If you disagree with that, then we disagree.

 

[SeventhSon]

Fixed it

I can agree with that statement. You can't stop crazy. You can only be lucky enough to not be the first victim so MAYBE you will have a chance at defending yourself or others.

 

[Cat]

Are you suggesting that Gun Free Zones are the cause of mass shootings? Or, that if there were no Gun Free Zones we wouldn't have these types of incidents?

Hypothetically, let's say there's no such thing as a GFZ. Some mentally whacked out kid in Connecticut comes to the conclusion that he wants to kill lots of innocent kids. Does he stay at home instead, his ambitions kept in check by the lack of GFZs?

Or, are you thinking that a teacher, a job notoriously filled by liberals, in a notoriously liberal state would be packing heat? And beyond on that unlikelihood, you're thinking he or she would have actually gone well beyond the average gun owner and actually gained the level of competance with a handgun to stand the slimmest of a chance in a gunfight against a crazed gunman with an AR-15?

Not kcinnick but I'll bite.
I think the gun free zone concept does need to be explored to some extent. I'm sure you do as well. But it's not because of Sandy Hook Elementary. Columbine and Sandy Hook were tragic. I don't know if we could prevent it because tragedy exists and it's an unfortunate fact of life. Arming teachers isn't a fix-all IMO.

My biggest issue with it is elementary teachers. I cannot see them keeping a firearm on their hip when they're bending down constantly to little kid's level, or allowing those children to crawl into her/his lap. This means that these younger schooler teachers would rely on a drawer, a safe box, or purse.
I also don't quite think a safe box is the answer either because *I* trust myself to keep the safe box locked, but I don't know if I would trust the teacher to do so. It's a gun inside a classroom and I'm taking the school administration's word on the idea that this teacher can practice the first rules of gun safety.
Second point, you're moving into situational panic/paralysis. The lack of consistent routine training for emergencies. We would be putting a great deal of faith in all teachers.



However regarding the idea of no GFZ in public buildings (theaters) and university/college campuses. Also establishing the right to carry into the work environment if you meet the legal aspects… Who knows. It might help. I know when there was a successful push towards CHPs after the Luby's massacre, there have been several reports of CHP owners who had participated in an altercation (either by shooting or changing the course of the gunman's actions). It might not have prevented all public shootings but it might have very well saved lives.

I do know that the answer towards public places and the universities is not the same answer that we need for our schools. It's not as simple as removing the No Guns sign on Whole Foods. It's not as simple as allowing someone to carry concealed on the sidewalk in Arizona.

The term Gun Free Zone needs to be used with care, along with the terms "semi automatic", "gun control", and "assault weapons". I say that because I see so many saying simply "if the teachers were armed…" That's not a fix. It's not what we should be focusing on. Let's remove guns from the discussion here. IMO it's not about firearms. It goes deeper because the media is correct on one thing. We've experienced this too many times. Why? Not "how", not "this is why it was easy", but what was the root cause to the issue?

Apologies if I'm way off base here.

 

[SpeedRacer]

Not kcinnick but I'll bite.
I think the gun free zone concept does need to be explored to some extent. I'm sure you do as well. But it's not because of Sandy Hook Elementary. Columbine and Sandy Hook were tragic. I don't know if we could prevent it because tragedy exists and it's an unfortunate fact of life. Arming teachers isn't a fix-all IMO.

My biggest issue with it is elementary teachers. I cannot see them keeping a firearm on their hip when they're bending down constantly to little kid's level, or allowing those children to crawl into her/his lap. This means that these younger schooler teachers would rely on a drawer, a safe box, or purse.
I also don't quite think a safe box is the answer either because *I* trust myself to keep the safe box locked, but I don't know if I would trust the teacher to do so. It's a gun inside a classroom and I'm taking the school administration's word on the idea that this teacher can practice the first rules of gun safety.
Second point, you're moving into situational panic/paralysis. The lack of consistent routine training for emergencies. We would be putting a great deal of faith in all teachers.



However regarding the idea of no GFZ in public buildings (theaters) and university/college campuses. Also establishing the right to carry into the work environment if you meet the legal aspects… Who knows. It might help. I know when there was a successful push towards CHPs after the Luby's massacre, there have been several reports of CHP owners who had participated in an altercation (either by shooting or changing the course of the gunman's actions). It might not have prevented all public shootings but it might have very well saved lives.

I do know that the answer towards public places and the universities is not the same answer that we need for our schools. It's not as simple as removing the No Guns sign on Whole Foods. It's not as simple as allowing someone to carry concealed on the sidewalk in Arizona.

The term Gun Free Zone needs to be used with care, along with the terms "semi automatic", "gun control", and "assault weapons".

Apologies if I'm way off base here.

I agree with 99% of what you said. My point was, and you seem to to agree, that it has little to nothing to do with cases like this.

 

[Cat]

I agree with 99% of what you said. My point was, and you seem to to agree, that it has little to nothing to do with cases like this.

Yeah. I seem to say Right On! with almost all of your posts.


99%? What's the 1%? I'm curious.

 

[SpeedRacer]

Yeah. I seem to say Right On! with almost all of your posts.


99%? What's the 1%? I'm curious.

Nothing directly, even though everything you said was correct IMO, you simply give more thought to arming teachers than I do. I not only think it will never happen, I think it would be a terrible idea in any regard under any realistic circumstances.

 

[aroundlsu]

Never in a million years will the nation accept arming teachers as a solution to the problem. I pitched it this weekend to a few conservative gun loving friends and even they looked at me like I was a nutcase. So we can all drop that idea right now.

 

[Scott.Thornton]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,404721,00.html

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

[SpeedRacer]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,404721,00.html

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

And?

 

[Scott.Thornton]

And?

Just putting it out there. I know its private school from the sound of it but some places are thinking about arming the teachers.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Very True man +1
Every time the nut-job tries this at a police station...He get's the hell shot out of em'

Not true. Last year 6 armed cops at a Washington State Coffee Shop. Mad man walks in shoots all 6 kills 4 walks out.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Wow. Next time I will stay out.

I didn't say crime would be eliminated, didn't say a mass killing would never happen again or that a teacher could take on a skilled marksmen with an AR-15.

I said the crime triangle is altered by the risk of being confronted and the Government sucks at solving problems. If you disagree with that, then we disagree.

I would agree with you if these murders were robberies or passion crimes. Unfortunately that are almost always committed by Mentally Ill persons without Criminal Motive. I don't believe the nut jobs perpetrating them Care about getting caught or confronted at all.

 

[Cat]

Nothing directly, even though everything you said was correct IMO, you simply give more thought to arming teachers than I do. I not only think it will never happen, I think it would be a terrible idea in any regard under any realistic circumstances.

Gotcha. I've given it thought because so many are saying "arm teachers". No that won't work, here's why.

 

[Gator 45/70]

Yeah, I recall the coffee shop shooting, Did'nt they shoot the heck out of him later though ?

Not true. Last year 6 armed cops at a Washington State Coffee Shop. Mad man walks in shoots all 6 kills 4 walks out.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

They either killed him in a standoff or he killed himself in either case it was
Days latter and didn't prevent the tragedy. Crazy happens.

 

[dawg23]

Just putting it out there. I know its private school from the sound of it but some places are thinking about arming the teacher.

1. This is not a private school. It is a public school district in Texas.

2. USA Today did a follow-up article in 2009, one year after the policy was implemented. After reading the article, I called the school district and spoke with the District Superintendent to learn more about the program. The pertinent, and important (to me) elements were:

a. The program had been well-received by faculty, students and parents. (This is Texas after all).

b. The program was voluntary for teachers -- no one was required to participate.

c. Teachers who wished to participate were required to have a concealed handgun license (which put them through a criminal background check) and pass a drug test.

d. Participating teachers also go through a four-day handgun training class chosen by the School District, every year. His description of the classes was brief (citing confidentiality concerns) but sounded like what you'd get from courses taught by Tom Givens, James Yeager or Clint Smith, and include firing 800-100 rounds. The School District pays for the bulk of this training.

He did tell me the instructor they used for the initial class was a former Gunsite Instructor. Annual re-qualification tset is modeled after the Federal Air Marshall qualification program.

e. The School District doesn't issue handguns, but has an "approved list" based on recommendations from the instructors that conduct the annual training. All teachers are required to carry the same ammo (.40) to ensure uniformity in case one needs to give ammo to another during an active shooter event. Teachers train together so that they are familiar with each other's weapons.

I see nothing wrong with this approach, and think it should be a model for other schools (particularly universities) around the country.

 

[Sugarbug]

1. This is not a private school. It is a public school district in Texas.

2. USA Today did a follow-up article in 2009, one year after the policy was implemented. After reading the article, I called the school district and spoke with the District Superintendent to learn more about the program. The pertinent, and important (to me) elements were:

a. The program had been well-received by faculty, students and parents. (This is Texas after all).

b. The program was voluntary for teachers -- no one was required to participate.

c. Teachers who wished to participate were required to have a concealed handgun license (which put them through a criminal background check) and pass a drug test.

d. Participating teachers also go through a two-day handgun training class chosen by the School District, every year. His description of the classes was brief (citing confidentiality concerns) but sounded like what you'd get from courses taught by Tom Givens, James Yeager or Clint Smith, and include firing 800-100 rounds. The School District pays for the bulk of this training.

e. The School District doesn't issue handguns, but has an "approved list" based on recommendations from the instructors that conduct the annual training. All teachers are required to carry the same ammo (.40) to ensure uniformity in case one needs to give ammo to another during an active shooter event.

I see nothing wrong with this approach, and think it should be a model for other schools (particularly universities) around the country.

Personally, I would rather see armed LEO's stationed around the school; though that is probably far more costly. Though I don't mind armed teachers, they had better be trained. I'm not sure a two day course and 1000 rounds of ammunition prepare them for much, but it's better than nothing, I suppose.

 

[JBE]

I would agree with you if these murders were robberies or passion crimes. Unfortunately that are almost always committed by Mentally Ill persons without Criminal Motive. I don't believe the nut jobs perpetrating them Care about getting caught or confronted at all.

This x 1000...Why can't some grasp this simple concept...No laws or fines or penalties will prevent these people from committing these acts...They will commit them regardless of the "consequences"

 

[dawg23]

Personally, I would rather see armed LEO's stationed around the school; though that is probably far more costly. Though I don't mind armed teachers, they had better be trained. I'm not sure a four-day course and 1000 rounds of ammunition prepare them for much, but it's better than nothing, I suppose.

THIS IS NOT INTENDED TO BE A COP-BASHING POST. It's a reply to a post the post quoted above.

I'm presuming from your reply that you haven't taken any defensive handgun training classes. People who have taken a couple of these classses, and then practice regularly, would probably disagree with you also. People who haven't taken these classes have a very limited frame of reference.

I'm of the opinion that motivated students (and presumably the Texas teachers described above are very motivated) will be better qualified than the average cop to protect students. The average cop isn't a "gun person" and many, after academy classes, shoot only when required to re-qualify.

Talk to range owners if you want to get an unbiased assessment of how well cops, in general, shoot. It'll be very similar to the population at large -- some shoot well, but most do not.

Talk to some LEO firearms instructors about the dilution of training standards -- or about the cadets they were told to pass, despite their inability to pass the qualification course of fire.

If the schools were to take officers from their SWAT units and put them in schools, I'd agree with you. But many seem to take the guys who can't fit anywhere else and make them "school resource officers."

 

[JBE]

Though I don't mind armed teachers, they had better be trained. I'm not sure a two day course and 1000 rounds of ammunition prepare them for much, but it's better than nothing, I suppose.

But, in this case, isn't something better than nothing at all?