Well it looks like we just got screwed

[flemgunner]

Heres the scoop.
1 There will be a required CLEO signature on every person in the trust
2 Common belief among the learned NFA folks is there wont be a grandfathering. No mention of "grandfathering" was made in the EO. This is why wait times are expected to double.
3 Its gonna happen. We may be able to reverse it later on with someone new at the helm but for now its a done deal.
4 If your local CLEO wont sign NFA you are hosed. Your best bet is to threaten then follow through with legal action.
5 There are a TON of really pissed off rich folks right now, and I mean a ton. Im hoping they join up in legal opposition as they have the money to do that.
6 NFATCA was supposed to be the group helping us get the CLEO sig removed instead they opened pandoras box and basically gave the powers that be the idea for what is happening

If you dont see this as bad for NFA purchases I dont know what to tell you. I supposed your also one of the "why does anyone need an assault rifle " people

 

[US Infidel]

So I'm wondering if my paper work is already mailed in, will they send it back when this takes effect?

 

[Chris88]

Heres the scoop.
1 There will be a required CLEO signature on every person in the trust
2 Common belief among the learned NFA folks is there wont be a grandfathering. No mention of "grandfathering" was made in the EO. This is why wait times are expected to double.
3 Its gonna happen. We may be able to reverse it later on with someone new at the helm but for now its a done deal.
4 If your local CLEO wont sign NFA you are hosed. Your best bet is to threaten then follow through with legal action.
5 There are a TON of really pissed off rich folks right now, and I mean a ton. Im hoping they join up in legal opposition as they have the money to do that.
6 NFATCA was supposed to be the group helping us get the CLEO sig removed instead they opened pandoras box and basically gave the powers that be the idea for what is happening

If you dont see this as bad for NFA purchases I dont know what to tell you. I supposed your also one of the "why does anyone need an assault rifle " people

My only hope is that there will be a grandfathering in. If what you are saying my daughter and myself would have to get the CLEO to sign off and I know that will not happen.

 

[JR1572]

I know. But the CLEO still signs a certificate. I didn't see anything in there about the CLEO "just gets a copy", correct me if I'm wrong.

That was part of the NFATCA proposal.

The removal of the verbiage in the proposal is good, but it will still depend on the CLEO's signature.

JR1572

 

[JR1572]

Heres the scoop.
1 There will be a required CLEO signature on every person in the trust
2 Common belief among the learned NFA folks is there wont be a grandfathering. No mention of "grandfathering" was made in the EO. This is why wait times are expected to double.
3 Its gonna happen. We may be able to reverse it later on with someone new at the helm but for now its a done deal.
4 If your local CLEO wont sign NFA you are hosed. Your best bet is to threaten then follow through with legal action.
5 There are a TON of really pissed off rich folks right now, and I mean a ton. Im hoping they join up in legal opposition as they have the money to do that.
6 NFATCA was supposed to be the group helping us get the CLEO sig removed instead they opened pandoras box and basically gave the powers that be the idea for what is happening

If you dont see this as bad for NFA purchases I dont know what to tell you. I supposed your also one of the "why does anyone need an assault rifle " people

How will it effect entities that have already taken possession of items? We would have to re-submit new form 1's and 4's of each item and each person? I'm asking because I didn't see anything about that in the EO.

JR1572

 

[SpeedRacer]

So I'm wondering if my paper work is already mailed in, will they send it back when this takes effect?

No one can answer that at this point.

 

[flemgunner]

How will it effect entities that have already taken possession of items? We would have to re-submit new form 1's and 4's of each item and each person? I'm asking because I didn't see anything about that in the EO.

JR1572

Form 4's I can see having to resubmit as for the rest I dont know yet. I dont think they will take the item until they determine you cant have it for some reason after the check.

 

[JR1572]

Form 4's I can see having to resubmit as for the rest I dont know yet. I dont think they will take the item until they determine you cant have it for some reason after the check.

So you're saying that they're going to go back and require every person on every trust that have already had transfers go through and people have possessed their items for years are now going to have to re-do form 1's and 4's?

I have trouble believing that.

JR1572

 

[MALIBU12]

So you're saying that they're going to go back and require every person on every trust that have already had transfers go through and people have possessed their items for years are now going to have to re-do form 1's and 4's?

I have trouble believing that.

JR1572

TALK ABOUT WAIT TIMES!!!!!

 

[SpeedRacer]

So you're saying that they're going to go back and require every person on every trust that have already had transfers go through and people have possessed their items for years are now going to have to re-do form 1's and 4's?

I have trouble believing that.

JR1572

I agree, and I didn't see any retroactive verbage in the proposal.

I believe this will apply to new transfers, after this goes into effect. From what I understand, you will also have to do the same if you make changes to your entity. If you add or remove someone everyone submits paperwork again. So even if someone never did an NFA transfer again, down the road if say they wanted to add their kids or family to the trust or someone using their LLC wanted to rearrange their shareholders they end up in the same boat.

 

[Chris88]

I agree, and I didn't see any retroactive verbage in the proposal.

I believe this will apply to new transfers, after this goes into effect. From what I understand, you will also have to do the same if you make changes to your entity. If you add or remove someone everyone submits paperwork again. So even if someone never did an NFA transfer again, down the road if say they wanted to add their kids or family to the trust or someone using their LLC wanted to rearrange their shareholders they end up in the same boat.

God I hope you are right. My daughter is on my trust and the Cleo will not sign.

 

[SpeedRacer]

God I hope you are right. My daughter is on my trust and the Cleo will not sign.

There were over 40,000 trust/estate/LLC transfers filed last year alone. Probably well over 100,000 total. Assuming a conservative average of two individuals on each, that would be 200,000 applications to be filed and approved retroactively. Even if there were no more transfers filed, that would tie up the system for years and cost millions. Just don't see that happening, nor was it mentioned anywhere in the proposal, including the thorough budget/cost analysis at the end of the proposal.

 

[flemgunner]

Remember the whole idea here is to make it difficult for folks to have guns, NFA included. This has nothing to do with "keeping guns away from felons". Using that train of thought they would have to back track the already completed transfers to "ensure there are no NFA weapons in felons hands" otherwise someone may ask questions as to why they are doing it in teh first place.
I have noticed a lack of verbiage saying they will or wont do this. Im a pessimist so I can see em making everything as painful as possible.

 

[Vermiform]

So....I've been dragging my feet getting into the NFA game. Is it too late for me to go start the trust paperwork or am I too late?

 

[lw55566]

I wouldn't say its to late. First things first, do you live somewhere that the CLEO will sign the form. if so this doesn't effect you... If you were choosing a trust for reasons other then the sign off then you are still good as long as they will sign.

If no they will not sign... then you need to consider moving if its really important, then call your federal reps and tell them to apply pressure to BATF, and start calling your state rep. and get them to back a Louisiana "shall sign" law similar to what Tenn or Alaska have...

 

[JNieman]

Here's an update. They're lawyer types that seem pretty "up" on firearms legalities and such things, so I'd been keeping tabs on them.

Their latest post, yesterday, is about the topic of whether or not you should bother with a trust/llc, etc.

Many individuals are inquiring of whether they should start a trust or corporation, or if already having started such a fictitious entity, submit additional making or transfer applications, given the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives’ (ATF) recent proposal, ATF 41P, to require CLEO signatures for all fictitious entities, as well as institution of a new role, *Responsible Person.* While ATF 41P is only a proposal and has not yet been enacted, and therefore the final language of any new regulation is yet unknown, I will attempt to explain my rationale that you should submit any making or transfer applications NOW.

They go into detail about the topic. I found it pretty interesting. I don't know these folks from Adam but it's some well reasoned opinions at the least. And it helps break down some of the legalese that was making my eyes cross as I read through it, sometimes.

 

[Vermiform]

I wouldn't say its to late. First things first, do you live somewhere that the CLEO will sign the form. if so this doesn't effect you... If you were choosing a trust for reasons other then the sign off then you are still good as long as they will sign.

If no they will not sign... then you need to consider moving if its really important, then call your federal reps and tell them to apply pressure to BATF, and start calling your state rep. and get them to back a Louisiana "shall sign" law similar to what Tenn or Alaska have...

I think my local CLEO would probably sign it. It's hard to explain, but I'd rather not bother him with it unless I had to.

 

[JNieman]

It was pointed out that I forgot to add the link to my post, I need more coffee...
Here it be:
http://blog.princelaw.com/2013/09/0...corporate-entity-given-atfs-proposal-atf-41p/

They have a number of good posts, recently, about this topic.

 

[MALIBU12]

I LIKE THIS PART !


NFA firearm or is listed as the transferee on an application to transfer an NFA firearm.* (emphasis added). Accordingly, it would not apply to existing entities, which have already had NFA firearms approved to that entity. This was also confirmed by Attorney Robert Merting during his call with ATF Attorney Brenda Friend (the same individual all comments are to be directed to). He states, *Ms. Friend specifically confirmed that the rule would not be retroactive and those transactions already approved will stand.*

 

[cajun_64]

Vermilion CLEO won't sign either,