Did Walton and Johnson cross the line on No Knock Officers killed and Injured?

[Emperor]

The one guy who is not the actor, the one who changes his voice etc.

This guy is insufferable! I honestly couldn't tell you which is more of a violation to the ears; him or Bob Dylan.

Now, back to the show!

 

[NOLAShootist]

Oh yeah, so just don't knock on the house, bust in, toss flash bangs, shoot anything that looks like it's resisting.

Yeah, great.

Oh wait, guys... this is 22 Acadia Ave, we're looking for 22 Acacia. Sorry about your dog, and the toddler that the flash bang landed on. We'll be going now. Oh no, you don't get to sue us, we're just doing our jobs. Bye bye.

No/

Because that happens almost hourly right? That is the worst case, that almost never happens. Gimme a break. This is akin to me saying all Marines throw puppies off cliffs bc I saw it on the news once or twice.

And, if you can find a way to monday morning QB tac unit actions and tactics and find a better way to take violent criminals into custody... Im sure the IACP will be all ears.

Also, if you know of a place where LE cant be sued, tell me. We'll all flock to the mysterious land of no liability.

 

[Hitman]

Hitman makes a point. We are wandering.

I am not glad that the officer was killed.
I am glad that the citizen is alive.
I wish Jose Guerena was.

What was said on air was deplorable.

Thank You Sir.

That (is) the issue at hand.

I don't want innocent people hurt or killed,
I do want LE to have No-Knocks in their pocket as a tactic, (I think there is a common ground to be found here)
but I don't want, nor do I agree with, nor am I glad that cops are shot and killed during no-knocks
while we try and figure out how to Enforce Law and Protect Citizens simultaneously.

 

[MOTOR51]

Oh yeah, so just don't knock on the house, bust in, toss flash bangs, shoot anything that looks like it's resisting.

Yeah, great.

Oh wait, guys... this is 22 Acadia Ave, we're looking for 22 Acacia. Sorry about your dog, and the toddler that the flash bang landed on. We'll be going now. Oh no, you don't get to sue us, we're just doing our jobs. Bye bye.

No/

Are you serious or just being funny? My point is that you would not have time to react if it was done correctly. It's hard for me to argue with people who only know what they read and have no first hand experience with a topic.

 

[Leonidas]

Edit: deleted another derailment

 

[Emperor]

Thank You Sir.

That (is) the issue at hand.

I don't want innocent people hurt or killed,
I do want LE to have No-Knocks in their pocket as a tactic, (I think there is a common ground to be found here)
but I don't want, nor do I agree with, nor am I glad that cops are shot and killed during no-knocks
while we try and figure out how to Enforce Law and Protect Citizens simultaneously.

Follow the yellow brick.....Constitution; it has worked for all these^ concerns in the past.

 

[MOTOR51]

And to answer the original question by hitman, W&J or ass holes. I have met them in person and they were pricks.

 

[Emperor]

Are you serious or just being funny? My point is that you would not have time to react if it was done correctly. It's hard for me to argue with people who only know what they read and have no first hand experience with a topic.

Don't you puss out on this!

 

[NOLAShootist]

I don't want innocent people hurt or killed,
I do want LE to have No-Knocks in their pocket as a tactic, (I think there is a common ground to be found here)
but I don't want, nor do I agree with, nor am I glad that cops are shot and killed during no-knocks
while we try and figure out how to Enforce Law and Protect Citizens simultaneously.

Agree with all of the above.

It's hard for me to argue with people who only know what they read and have no first hand experience with a topic.

 

[NOLAShootist]

My trollin pants have been replaced by a trollin swimsuit. Im off to the backyard to go work on being the golden goddess that I know I can be. Back to argue later.

 

[homeslice]

Thank You Sir.

That (is) the issue at hand.

I don't want innocent people hurt or killed,
I do want LE to have No-Knocks in their pocket as a tactic, (I think there is a common ground to be found here)
but I don't want, nor do I agree with, nor am I glad that cops are shot and killed during no-knocks
while we try and figure out how to Enforce Law and Protect Citizens simultaneously.

I am one of the yes votes. And, I voted before I read through here and found the context. I agree with Leonidas and you.

 

[Devilneck]

Because that happens almost hourly right? That is the worst case, that almost never happens. Gimme a break. This is akin to me saying all Marines throw puppies off cliffs bc I saw it on the news once or twice.

And, if you can find a way to monday morning QB tac unit actions and tactics and find a better way to take violent criminals into custody... Im sure the IACP will be all ears.

Also, if you know of a place where LE cant be sued, tell me. We'll all flock to the mysterious land of no liability.

Happens hourly? Does the infrequency of an incident reduce the severity when it does happen? Perhaps you should try using a little investigative initiative and perform a google search on the topic "officer killed in no knock raid"

Then try the search term "homeowner killed in no knock raid on wrong house."

Nope, it's not every day. It's far too often that people are killed or injured during a practice that any objective observer should be able to see is a situation that violates safety, rights, and common sense. Every day an officer gears up, they know that their life is on the line. Why not eliminate some of the risk for the officer? In almost all of these cases, had there been a knock at the door and a reasonable attempt to communicate with the occupant, the outcome would have been better for all involved.

Solutions?
Yeah, it's pretty simple. End no knock raids. Then it's never an issue.


I know all Marines don't throw puppies off of cliffs, I never did.

 

[Emperor]

My trollin pants have been replaced by a trollin swimsuit. Im off to the backyard to go work on being the golden goddess that I know I can be. Back to argue later.

Hmmmm! Bringing the "sexy" to this thread, eh?

Speedo or traditional?

 

[kingfhb]

First and foremost... They deserved to get shot???? REALLY? Whomever agrees that a Law Enforcement officer serving in a professional manor, making less than $50,000 a year to take the risks that are expected should be shot is a **** TARD who needs their ass handed to them! They're also the FIRST ones to bitch when their call takes longer than 30 seconds to answer... or expect that the laws don't apply to them.

With that being said, I've dealt with some "God Complex" officers who really need some training... but I wouldn't wish death on them for the job others wouldn't even consider doing for all the ******** dealt with, paperwork, unjustified complaints, long hours, little pay, etc. The plain truth though is that without them, even just knowing they're out there, prevents chaos and anarchy in the streets.

One thing that I never seem to see in these discussions, even when it comes to Walton and Johnson... The teams, officers, involved overall are not the decision makers in a lot of the cases. Decisions to use a tactical team to serve a warrant or perform a search are issued by a judge with the presence of justifiable cause. They're not just driving past houses, all piled up in an MRAP, then they come upon a house and say "Looks like a good one... lets do this!". They're following orders and doing the job that is expected in the manor they have been trained to do it.

There's a REASON a "no-knock" is issued... the same reasons a "Felony Take Down" may be required. If the officers are in an increased risk environment, different tactics are needed.

Now, I understand the dangers of a no-knock... however, so do each of the officers performing the task. Saying that they "DESERVE" it is just rediculous. Saying "That's the risks of the job"... more accurate and not being DICKISH.

This view that LEO are the "enemy" has been on the rise for some time. The bad part is... they are trained to do a job. The tactics and means of doing so have been adapted and tailored over years and YEARS of dealing with criminals and performing that job. Everything is where it is today for a reason... lessons learned... those procedures are mostly written in the blood of dead, disabled, or wounded officers. Walking up to a High Risk home and knocking on the door, whispering "Excuse me... anyone home?" with a plate of cookies in your hand isn't the solution. Knocking and then waiting for a response on that type of assignment is...

1. Time to dig in and prepare for the entry that will take place anyway because they WILL NOT answer the door.
2. Time to ensure their weapons are at the ready and loaded... adding MORE risk to the situation.
3. Time to prepare by removing or destroying evidence
4. Time to evade and escape

Do I think that mistakes are made periodically? Of course. Keep in mind though... gaining access to floor plans, and other intelligence is part of the process, but in a lot of cases (especially in Louisiana) those floorplans have been modified (illegally without gaining permits in most cases). Entering a building or home that is unknown, doors may not be where they once were, rooms could be different, kitchens, bathrooms, etc... could be moved is dangerous enough without knowing a criminal (or several criminals) could be behind any door, under any bed, or squeezed into any crack or crevace (you wouldn't even believe).

Bottom line is, there are a lot of factors that come into play. No one is serving a No Knock warrant for an unpaid speeding ticket unless the guy is wanted for murder in another state or something... these are VIOLENT CRIMINALS or with a history of violence toward others or law enforcement. Also, don't blame the messenger... they're only doing what they're told to do. Elect a new DA or Judges.

 

[Leonidas]

Bullshite

 

[Nomad.2nd]

I learned something early on in my career...

I was at a bar one night. (It happens.) I was in normal clothes. I was sitting at the bar, talking to some girl and a guy bellied up to the bar next to me and sat down. I looked over and immediately recognized him as a guy I had arrested (for DWI) a night or two earlier. He looked at me, smiled and ordered. We even BS'd about the game that was on. Had zero clue who I was.

What did I learn that night? We (uniformed LE) arent people to the majority of the populace. We're a badge and a gun and nothing more.

Over the years, it was proven time and time again. Running into people I had dealt with at work in social situations and theyd have no clue. Walking into a place to eat and watch the entire room look at your badge and then down to your holster. Thats it.

Im not bemoaning the fact. But, it serves to further illustrate my, "rather see me dead than alive" comment.

Yes, I was including bad guys in that comment.

But, if this makes any sense... when people only see a badge and gun, and dont consider you a person... why would they care if a badge/gun lives or dies? That only happens if the guy wearing it is thought of as a husband, father, brother, son, neighbor, fellow Church member, etc...

So, in clarification, maybe it isnt actively wishing harm on LE in as much as it is a complete lack of concern for what happens to us. You cant tell me you havent heard time and time again, "Well, thats what those guys get paid for" when people are sitting around discussing an EOW in the headlines. If I had a dime for every time Ive heard that, Id be rich.

Quite frankly sir:

I consider this more due to Peace Officers transforming into Law Enforcement Officers than any other reason.

Even someone such as myself, a medically retired Marine who had a TS clearance no longer looks at "a cop showing up" as a good thing.

When a Marine is murdered in his own home by a "no knock".... People don't look too friendly towards a violation of the constitutional right to be secure in our own homes... And as I recall the department threw his family a pittance and basically told them "take it or we will bankrupt you"

You want to be loved.... Stop being a law enforcement officer and go back to being a peace officer.
Be there for the people, and not the law.

 

[Emperor]

Decisions to use a tactical team to serve a warrant or perform a search are issued by a judge with the presence of justifiable cause. .

I would be interested to know when the modern day Constitutional Convention met to allow these warrants to be served on the head of a battering ram? I must have been out of town!

 

[Nomad.2nd]

Bottom line is, there are a lot of factors that come into play. No one is serving a No Knock warrant for an unpaid speeding ticket unless the guy is wanted for murder in another state or something... these are VIOLENT CRIMINALS or with a history of violence toward others or law enforcement. Also, don't blame the messenger... they're only doing what they're told to do. Elect a new DA or Judges.

There was a thread about a month or so ago on the FALFILES about one... Homeowner was shot over unpaid tickets.

 

[Devilneck]

I would be interested to know when the modern day Constitutional Convention met to allow these warrants to be served on the head of a battering ram? I must have been out of town!

You were probably committing a crime too!

 

[kingfhb]

Quite frankly sir:

I consider this more due to Peace Officers transforming into Law Enforcement Officers than any other reason.

Even someone such as myself, a medically retired Marine who had a TS clearance no longer looks at "a cop showing up" as a good thing.

When a Marine is murdered in his own home by a "no knock".... People don't look too friendly towards a violation of the constitutional right to be secure in our own homes... And as I recall the department threw his family a pittance and basically told them "take it or we will bankrupt you"

You want to be loved.... Stop being a law enforcement officer and go back to being a peace officer.
Be there for the people, and not the law.

The down side to this is that Law Enforcement Officers have reached the level of duty that they are at as a result of a response to public outcry. Criminals prey on the peace... that causes citizens to call for action and see results. At city council meetings you can hear it every time... "The police should be doing more to arrest these criminals!" and "We want results!!". Those kind of demands bring on the higher-ups to make changes and step up actions to produce results. I know everyone has heard "Why aren't you out catching criminals instead of writing me a ticket and picking on me!".

Now that the tables have turned and the officers are working at an increased capacity, everyone wants the police to now take a step back and start over. "Lets walk around with our trusty .38 on our side in our blues and patrol the streets, patting little Tommy on the head and saying "have a great day!" to everyone person we meet."

While you're wanting that... have a read about the officer shot on a detail just the other day in New Orleans... or maybe the Pa. Trooper ambushed outside the barracks... or the two officers gunned down in a restaurant while eating in Vegas.

The world isn't a safe place. How much more safe do you think it would be without them?