Did Walton and Johnson cross the line on No Knock Officers killed and Injured?

[Leonidas]

"They're only doing what they are told to do"

So were the NKVD, KGB, Stasi, Savak, Ton Ton Macoute, Red Guards, Khmer Rouge, Geheim Statspolizei, ad infinitum.

 

[kingfhb]

I would be interested to know when the modern day Constitutional Convention met to allow these warrants to be served on the head of a battering ram? I must have been out of town!

So you'd be happy with them coming to you and saying "Hey, go knock on that door of that violent criminals house who will probably have a gun and will more than likely shoot you for us and we'll give you $13.00 for an hour of your time."

 

[Nomad.2nd]

The down side to this is that Law Enforcement Officers have reached the level of duty that they are at as a result of a response to public outcry. Criminals prey on the peace... that causes citizens to call for action and see results. At city council meetings you can hear it every time... "The police should be doing more to arrest these criminals!" and "We want results!!". Those kind of demands bring on the higher-ups to make changes and step up actions to produce results. I know everyone has heard "Why aren't you out catching criminals instead of writing me a ticket and picking on me!".

Now that the tables have turned and the officers are working at an increased capacity, everyone wants the police to now take a step back and start over. "Lets walk around with our trusty .38 on our side in our blues and patrol the streets, patting little Tommy on the head and saying "have a great day!" to everyone person we meet."

While you're wanting that... have a read about the officer shot on a detail just the other day in New Orleans... or maybe the Pa. Trooper ambushed outside the barracks... or the two officers gunned down in a restaurant while eating in Vegas.

The world isn't a safe place. How much more safe do you think it would be without them?

WHERE ddi you EVER see me say police should be "walking around with just a .38!?!

I am ALL FOR giving Them body armor, rifles, CS,NVG ETC.

BUT: that is an attempt to muddy the water and change the discussion from the continual 4th amendment violation of "no knocks" to police walking around in public.

No sir: I will not let you change the discussion in that manner in order to try to twist it to your own ends.


As to the world being more dangerious without the police:
Perhaps, but for the first quite a few years in this country there were almost no police at all.
Since citizen shoots are much more sure to be both correct and accurate.... I'd be ok with a little more private citizen response rather than the revolving door court system....



http://actionamerica.org/guns/guns1.shtml

. Armed Citizens Make Fewer Mistakes Than Police

Don't think that just because the police are trained in the use of firearms that they are less likely to kill an innocent person. A University of Chicago Study revealed that in 1993 approximately 700,000 police killed 330 innocent individuals, while approximately 250,000,000 private citizens only killed 30 innocent people. Do the math. That's a per capita rate for the police, of almost 4000 times higher than the population in general. OK, that is a little misleading. Let's just include the 80,000,000 gun owning citizens. Now the police are down to only a 1200 times higher accidental shooting rate than the gun-owning population in general.

That still sounds high. So let's look at it in a different light. According to a study by Newsweek magazine, only 2% of civilian shootings involve an innocent person being shot (not killed). The error rate for police is 11%. What this means is that you are more than 5 times more likely to be accidentally shot by a policeman than by an armed citizen. But, when you consider that citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as do police every year, it means that, per capita, you are more than 11 times more likely to be accidentally shot by a policeman than by an armed citizen. That is as low as I can get that number.

This is not meant to be an indictment of the police. In fact, because police often live on the edge, they naturally tend to shoot first and ask questions later. Although they are trained to repress this instinct, it does not always work, as evidenced by the number of innocent people killed by police. Also, since they are generally better marksmen, they tend to kill, rather than wound or totally miss their target.

The Kleck study shows that police shoot and kill around 600 criminals each year. Yet the University of Chicago study shows that police killed 330 innocent individuals in 1993. That means that for every two criminals killed by police, one innocent citizen is killed by police. Although I have the greatest respect for the police and how they must respond under pressure, I think that I would much rather trust an armed populace.

 

[Leonidas]

So you'd be happy with them coming to you and saying "Hey, go knock on that door of that violent criminals house who will probably have a gun and will more than likely shoot you for us and we'll give you $13.00 for an hour of your time."

Nope. I'd be insulted that they think I'm stupid enough to believe that's the smartest, bestest, onlyest way to accomplish the goal.

 

[kingfhb]

"They're only doing what they are told to do"

So were the NKVD, KGB, Stasi, Savak, Ton Ton Macoute, Red Guards, Khmer Rouge, Geheim Statspolizei, ad infinitum.

Good point... however, they were under a different enforcement of their own set of laws. Those weren't considered "Local" law enforcement as we know it. They were directed by the Government or military leaders.

That would be like the CIA, Secret Service or the military enforcing our laws in the streets of anytown USA. (And it's Geheime Staatspolizei).

As far as Ad Infinitum... we have limits in our society. I respect your comments... don't be an extremist or believe that the people aren't truly in control in this country.

 

[Nomad.2nd]

Nope. I'd be insulted that they think I'm stupid enough to believe that's the smartest, bestest, onlyest way to accomplish the goal.

They took Will Hayden down in transit....

Just sayin.

 

[Emperor]

So you'd be happy with them coming to you and saying "Hey, go knock on that door of that violent criminals house who will probably have a gun and will more than likely shoot you for us and we'll give you $13.00 for an hour of your time."

Don't know if that would make me happy or not! Would have a better idea if we went back to bouncing these ideas off of the Constitution.

I don't condone LEO getting killed in any circumstance; but I think I know why this radio douche said what he said. It's like when you get angry at someone and you are trying to hurt them by saying the most vile crap you can to make them feel bad. Or, if you are trying to one up them. You may not really mean that you know they fornicate with their mothers and/or hope they get AIDS from a meth headed male prostitute; you just say it to intensify the sentiment or emotion.

I will assume this douche said this because he doesn't believe in no-knock raids at his core, and wanted to heighten the sentiment of his core belief. He's still a douche, and I still abhor the moron that makes the voices.

 

[kingfhb]

WHERE ddi you EVER see me say police should be "walking around with just a .38!?!

I am ALL FOR giving Them body armor, rifles, CS,NVG ETC.

BUT: that is an attempt to muddy the water and change the discussion from the continual 4th amendment violation of "no knocks" to police walking around in public.

No sir: I will not let you change the discussion in that manner in order to try to twist it to your own ends.


As to the world being more dangerious without the police:
Perhaps, but for the first quite a few years in this country there were almost no police at all.
Since citizen shoots are much more sure to be both correct and accurate.... I'd be ok with a little more private citizen response rather than the revolving door court system....



http://actionamerica.org/guns/guns1.shtml

That was not meant to be as if you insinuated it... it was meant to portray the "Good old fashioned Officer Friendly" image that people seem to want from the 1950's. I'm not trying to change the subject at all.

Though, I can understand the citizens being more effective and making less mistakes. They're not risking thier lives every time they step out into the public. If EVERYONE was an officer and could enforce the law, no one would hate them... they would BE them. Unfortunately, history over the years has shown us that Law enforcement officers are needed. The day that all citizens lose the "I don't want to get involved" mindset is the day something like that could work.

The CITIZENS call for the upholding of the law and "policing". That's how law enforcement as far back as Ancient China came to be.

 

[Leonidas]

Good point... however, they were under a different enforcement of their own set of laws. Those weren't considered "Local" law enforcement as we know it. They were directed by the Government or military leaders.

That would be like the CIA, Secret Service or the military enforcing our laws in the streets of anytown USA. (And it's Geheime Staatspolizei).

As far as Ad Infinitum... we have limits in our society. I respect your comments... don't be an extremist or believe that the people aren't truly in control in this country.

You blew right past the point.

Being told to do something IN NO WAY excuses you from responsibility for YOUR actions. I assume that you possess some level of moral awareness. Am I correct?

 

[mike84z28]

I do not want LEO (or anyone else) to get shot
I do not like No Knock warrents

Walton and Johnson are getting exactly what they wanted when they said those things this morning PUBLISITY !!!
There Shock Jocks

 

[kingfhb]

Don't know if that would make me happy or not! Would have a better idea if we went back to bouncing these ideas off of the Constitution.

I don't condone LEO getting killed in any circumstance; but I think I know why this radio douche said what he said. It's like when you get angry at someone and you are trying to hurt them by saying the most vile crap you can to make them feel bad. Or, if you are trying to one up them. You may not really mean that you know they fornicate with their mothers and/or hope they get AIDS from a meth headed male prostitute; you just say it to intensify the sentiment or emotion.

I will assume this douche said this because he doesn't believe in no-knock raids at his core, and wanted to heighten the sentiment of his core belief. He's still a douche, and I still abhor the moron that makes the voices.

I agree completely.

 

[kingfhb]

You blew right past the point.

Being told to do something IN NO WAY excuses you from responsibility for YOUR actions. I assume that you possess some level of moral awareness. Am I correct?

In that point I agree. Moral awareness is one thing... That is a luxury we have in our country, the Moral aptitude to decide what orders we should obey and deny. I will say, some DO NOT possess this ability and will do whatever they are told no matter of the consequence. these are psycho's who should have never passed the Psyche evaluation for the department or military branch. Do they exist? Definitely. However, they are far outnumbered.

We're not raised under a blanket of a leader who we think is a god or the second coming. Hell, we can't even get anyone to agree there's a god... we could never get this country to follow someone like a Hitler... everyone would doubt EVERYTHING!! hahaha

Doing what they're told in the context that I identified it with was in the context that we as U.S. citizens would have the moral decision making abiltiy to say "Nope... not gonna do it" or have the leaders who would say the same before it ever got to that point. Lets hope it never does.

I was not even considering it getting to or associating with a level of the fanatics you mentioned.

As for our 4th amendment right... I support no knocks in the instance of valid intelligence proving an increased or high risk to officers. As I said above... they're not just doing these things on a whim. 99.9% of warrants are not served by a tactical team breaching a door to make an arrest. These are Extremely high risk Felony warrants.

 

[NOLAShootist]

They took Will Hayden down in transit....

Just sayin.

They managed to take down a nonviolent, celebrity in transit? Thats totally the same thing as the average tac callout.

As to the "Law enforcement officer" vs "peace officer," seriously? Same damn thing. Is there a difference between a game warden and wildlife enforcement agent? No.

 

[Leonidas]

This is pointless. You insist on using the tactics to justify the tactics. Excellent job of circular reasoning.

 

[Emperor]

We're not raised under a blanket of a leader who we think is a god or the second coming. Hell, we can't even get anyone to agree there's a god... we could never get this country to follow someone like a Hitler... everyone would doubt EVERYTHING!! hahaha

Some would say 50% of this country disagree with this^.

 

[Vermiform]

I am one of the yes votes. And, I voted before I read through here and found the context. I agree with Leonidas and you.

I am also one of the YES votes. I misread the topic as being the poll question. I read, "Did Walton and Johnson cross the line" and voted YES.

I do not agree with Walton and Johnson, my YES vote was an error.

 

[Hitman]

Simple quote;

"I'm glad they were shot".

In reference to another No Knock Raid that went sour in Texas
where one Officer was killed and 3 others wounded.

Walton and Johnson then insinuated that more of this will/should happen
in order to get these SWAT Teams to end these pre-dawn no knock raids
on non-major criminals.

So did W&J cross the line with you? as far as a listener?

The question is;

Do you agree with Walton and Johnson;
"That you are glad these Officers were shot/killed"?

This is not a misinterpretation or misquote.
He said, "I'm glad they were shot".

7 people say Yes.
I find that disturbing.

/

 

[slogoat]

I don't agree with the W&J comment.

It's hard for me to argue with people who only know what they read and have no first hand experience with a topic.

Either of you two been involved in a botched no-knock raid at an incorrect address, or just read about them?

 

[03protege]

The world isn't a safe place. How much more safe do you think it would be without them?

Probably not too much worse, the way the justice system practices catch an release you would think thugs are an endangered species.

I must have caught them right after this occurred, first thing I remember hearing them talking about is how NYPD wouldn't hire an applicant for scoring too high on his standardized test.

 

[Hitman]

I am also one of the YES votes. I misread the topic as being the poll question. I read, "Did Walton and Johnson cross the line" and voted YES.

I do not agree with Walton and Johnson, my YES vote was an error.

Dammnit. Just realized that. Only Austin can fix the poll at this point.