Improvement Time Part Two---Update in post #160

[AustinBR]

Back in Mid-September I started a thread asking for suggestions for improvements to BayouShooter. The results and suggestions that we got were overwhelmingly positive. Out of the hundreds of submissions that we received via PM and on the public forum, I, with the help of the site staff, implemented over thirty suggestions for improvement publicly and dozens behind the scenes. Now it is time again to see about bringing in more ideas and tailoring this wonderful place more so around what YOU, the members, want.

In the first thread where I asked for suggestions, we did not allow people to debate the ideas or suggestions. In this thread, I encourage comments on other people's suggestions. Hopefully with a little debate and discussion we can get some awesome ideas out of everyone. If you would not like your idea to be posted publicly, please PM it to me and you will remain anonymous (and I will post the idea to be discussed). If you have any questions, please feel free to respond to this thread or to PM me.

I look forward to hearing from everyone!

Thanks,

Austin

***EDIT - READ THIS POST BEFORE COMMENTING HERE*** - CLICK HERE


Oh boy! I am gone for 24 hours and 8 pages pop up. Damn guys. Good job! I will respond to some quotes I picked out below and then offer some general comments below the last quote.

I can not find where the rules are listed now. So bear with my memory here, please.

Rule 9 says something to the effect that no user may question a mod or admin either in public or private for an decision that has been made. I find that rule to be highly offensive. I goes counter to the very core of beliefs. It creates an us versus them.

I have found that the moderators do not adopt a helpful tone to the posts. The tone I freqently read is do what I say b/c if you don't you must be stupid. They get very confrontational and takes things way too personally.

This doesn't absolve a user from also having the same problems and they should be handled consitantly the same way. Not one way for one who's a friend and another for someone people don't like. The rules must be fair and evenly inforced with out prejudice.

Some of the moderators as not very good at this. I asume that you are aware of this problem b/c you have handle quite a few of their decisions after they are made.

Also a mod can with out talking to the user award penelties. In some cases they penelties have been removed after the fact. That sounds to that mod's judge someone guilty and start the punishment without ever talking to the individual. The rights of the individual are sancrosant in the country. If a mod has a problem they should go to someone else to discuss it. They that other person should talk to the person who caused the problem. Then if a punishment is warrented it should be placed not by the original moderator.

A system like one above would reduce knee jerk bull crap and hopefully make the various punishments uniform to the misbehavior.

Dave

Not true. You are misremembering or misreading the rules. There is no us vs them attitude. If you have ANY problem with ANY moderator or administrative behavior, PM the MOD. If that doesn't help, PM me. If you still have a problem, PM Spanky. If you are upset with something spanky did, PM him and me. All issues are discussed and no complaints are just brushed away. You say that you find posts not helpful or whatever...PM me about them. Send me links. Our system behind the scenes is super organized. I wrote up a multi-page document that the mods follow to the T. In summary - if you think a moderator is stepping out of place, you need to talk to them about it, and if that doesn't work, talk to me about it. PM me or email me. austin at this domainname dot com.

It seems like you already have you're mind made up, so I'm sure this comment will amount to a pile of beans but I'd like to see comments back in the classifieds. Like I said, you asked for suggestions and 70% of these comments are about this. I really don't see a problem with opening a poll and letting the board members vote on the issue. It seems to me if I moderated the board and 3/4 of the board were asking for something, regardless of if I as a moderator consider it a solid idea I would look into implementing it. As Neil09 said, this is place seems to have slowed to a crawl except for the handful of about 10-15 members that post all day. None of which is entertaining.

Not true. I am leaning towards allowing comments back in the classifieds section. We will discuss options on ways to make it work internally for now and then will come forward with feasible options and let the community decide what they want. Read that again everyone.

No offense to be meant by this but why dont we talk to all of the mods on comments being allowed in the for sale section.

Would it even matter or would we all be wasting our time trying to talk to yall about the idea of allowing it again?

Again no offense meant I'll drop it from here on out just be straight with me and I wont bother mentioning it again.

My point of view on it is the same as Leonidas.

I am heading all of the changes on the board right now. Myself and the moderators are discussing options behind closed doors. They are invited to speak up just like any other member, but I am not forcing them to.

I dont want to beat a dead horse by any means but since it was asked I'll respond.

I like the idea of having responses in the Classifieds section. I have found myself listing less and less items for sale since that ended, instead turning to other outlets to sell. I think I post pretty decent ads with good photos and information but I got tired of the PM's. Its easier (for me) to respond to the ad. I admit its a bit of laziness on my part. I could probably go in and edit the ad and be done with it but I just found that annoying and instead of bringing up the forbidden subject on the board I just listed elsewhere. And the "your price is too damn high" and "thats a sweet gun" never really bothered me as a seller or a buyer. I actually sold a few items faster when people who "great gun" bumped me. Just my $0.02.


Edit to add: What about having two classifieds for a set period of time. One that allows comments and one that does not. Give it, say, two or three months. See which classified section gets more ads put up. If the "no comments" classifieds get more then I'm pretty sure most people would shut up about it.

I like your last idea. That is a possibility and will be discussed.

I believe that the following changes would benefit the forum:
Only one firearm per ad.
Firearm and price clearly shown in title
Specific minimum information required in firearm ad (example: Price, Manufacturer, Model, Caliber, Barrel length, Trades (yes or no), etc)

I like your second point the most. The other ideas are difficult to moderate and enforce. If you want someone to post more specific information, just PM them

1. Keep comments out of the classifieds. The biggest problems with comments are what people decide to post. Way too much thread crapping. I loved that AR15 thread 03protege(even though the best one was "Stop BSing in the classifieds section-it was epic) listed but the fact is you can ask what you want. If someone is foolish enough to buy something like that without doing the research, shame on them. I have never seen the guys who gripe about high prices post something like" Hey man, you could get another $200 out of that gun- you should kill this ad and repost it for more." Also, too many people want to discuss how good/bad something is. Nothing like trying to sell an Eotech and getting a big post about how Eotech's are crap. Now, If the OP could delete threads that MIGHT be a good solution.

2. Allow classified ads to be posted without pictures. I'm not sure why this was done but it makes it a bit harder for me to post items. If someone really wants a pic I can email it or post it later. I think this would go a long way to increasing the number of classifieds posted. It also makes it easier to post several smaller items.

3. Sponsor's ads with regular classifieds. Love it. Honestly I rarely look in the Sponsor's classifieds. I think it gives the Sponsors a bigger bang for their buck. I would, however, identify a sponsor from an individual.

4. Advertise the site. This is not so much an issue with the site but one of expanding the site. I live in Leesville. Most subscribers are in the BR/NO area. Maybe advertise on bookoo.com, ar15.com, louisianasportsman, etc to increase the number of subscribers around the state. Also a good presence at gunshows would be a great idea.

5. A wishlist. I'm a member on one forum that let's me input a list of terms. If a post is made with those terms I am notified. Comes in really handy when I am looking to buy something.

Classified ads without pictures will not happen and is not up for debate. Yes on sponsors being able to post ads in the classifieds section. I am going to work on some rules for the sponsors to keep them from spamming the place though. When I say I, I mean Jack mainly. He is good at that. Advertising the site. Yes. That will happen in the near future. There are some things in the way right now, but I do have plans to work on that. More to come on that later though.

Going off the "like" concept that tim9lives spoke of. Is there a way to have a "like" button that would show on the main page? This way people could see that the item for sale is nice and or the person is a respected member of the forum. Just throwing an idea out there. Not even sure it is possible. The whole like on FB thing is ok but most members on here are not friends on FB. To add to that there are prolly more members here that are not even on FB.

vBulletin has a feature like that installed by default. I could turn it on and give it a test ride if a few more people like the idea. I am worried that it might create an elitist group of old members with high post counts who think they are better than others. Comments on this guys?

They're used to be a lot more than eight, used to be a lot more traffic too. I wonder what the common denominator is?

Traffic hasn't gone down. It has actually been increasing since I came in as Admin. Also, it has not gone down much since the big active period of late 2011. People just post less. More lurkers now.

I have been around for a while but don't post a lot. I do read quite a number of the posts on the site. But I have slowed down on coming to the site since some of the changes. Seemed, at least to me, that for a while there was an overly controlling mood to the forums.

Question if the classifieds would have comments. Can a selection be built into the create new post page to either allow or disallow comments on the post? Similar to locking the post? Seems this would allow those members who didn't want comments to block them and also allow those who didn't care to get and give comments. Just a thought.

People can already lock their own threads in the classifieds section. That would disallow comments


<---------------------------->

Now that I have finished responding to a few recurring ideas, I have a few things to say:

1) I am open to allowing comments back in the classifieds. For now, lets QUIT discussing it in this thread. We know lots of y'all want it back. I am going to work on putting something together that would allow comments, but make it work better than in the past. If you really have something to say, PM me. For now though, NO MORE DISCUSSING COMMENTS IN CLASSIFIEDS IN THIS THREAD>

2) The like system someone mentioned above - I would like opinions.

3) Any new ideas that y'all have would be great. Now that we aren't discussing comments in the classifieds anymore, I urge all of you who have participated in this thread to put on your thinking caps and see if you can come up with any other ways to make the forum better. Simple or complex, let us know.

4) Chat system: Has been tried in the past and failed. I am going to veto this one for now.

5) I think I caught all of the new ideas suggested in the 8 pages, but if I missed one that you posted (as in I didn't comment on it), please quote it again so I can mention it.

6) As I said above - everything being discussed here is also being discussed in the moderator forum. Ultimately, we have to implement any ideas that you guys like. If anything worth mentioning comes up, I will most certainly make sure to inform everyone here. Thanks for the cooperation guys

7) Lastly, I am still receiving PMs from people. If I haven't responded yet, I will soon. I have a quite a few to go through and not too much time on my hands tonight (it's 12:10 AM already). Don't think I forgot about ya!

Thanks again guys!

 

[S&W4ME]

It's been mentioned time and time again but I'll throw it out there.

Allow comments in the classified section

 

[AustinBR]

It's been mentioned time and time again but I'll throw it out there.

Allow comments in the classified section

How will that benefit the forum?

 

[S&W4ME]

How will that benefit the forum?

I'm selling a gun. 3 potential buyers have the same question about the gun, let's say round count. Rather than having 3 different people PM or Email me and having me respond according one can ask the question in the thread and it can be answered.

 

[All Star]

How will that benefit the forum?

I agree. I'd LOVE to have comments in the classified section. SO much more efficient.

 

[AustinBR]

I'm selling a gun. 3 potential buyers have the same question about the gun, let's say round count. Rather than having 3 different people PM or Email me and having me respond according one can ask the question in the thread and it can be answered.

OK, so your thread is bumped above other for sale threads three times in one day and a fourth when you respond. How is this fair to other sellers who want their ad to be seen, but no one is posting on it? Also, if you get three PMs about round count, why not just reply to all three PMs and then edit the answer into the thread?

 

[AustinBR]

I agree. I'd LOVE to have comments in the classified section. SO much more efficient.

How would it be more efficient?

 

[Bam Bam]

I'm all for comments back in the classified section. I surf here on a smart phone and answering PM's and such on it isn't fun. Let's keep it simple.

 

[S&W4ME]

OK, so your thread is bumped above other for sale threads three times in one day and a fourth when you respond. How is this fair to other sellers who want their ad to be seen, but no one is posting on it? Also, if you get three PMs about round count, why not just reply to all three PMs and then edit the answer into the thread?

No one said anything about my thread being bumped 4 times. I post a for sale ad, you comment by asking, "Round count" I reply. I count two bumps there. The other people can read that their question was asked and answered.

Yes I can reply to 3 PMs then edit my post. 3 PMs will also mean 3 email notifications for me. I can edit my post but is it really efficient to continue to go back in and edit a post each time a question is asked? Wouldn't it be simpler to open up the thread and let people have a discussion there, hence the purpose of a discussion board

 

[kcinnick]

Combine Sponsors and Regular Classifieds, Sponsors classifieds are a dead zone. Bold the Sponsors posts or something, but don't give them priority or anything.

I do like comments in classifieds, just have some rules to follow. A discussion on a classified ad was a great selling tool for me before they were eliminated. Often instead of selling 1 of an item, I might sell 5 or 6 of an identical item.

As far as moderation, I am not calling anyone specific, and it has been a while since I had a direct conflict with a moderator, but someone has to stand down at some point, the member or the mod - A ban isn't necessarily the best option for either the member or the board. I know when I was banned, the moderator just didn't understand what I meant by my comment, it was taken out of context. Lots of things can be fixed with some civil conversation, not trying to one up the member and/or mod.

Maybe a free for all area for the older members... Some of us have been around a while and wear big boy pants and might like an area for members with X amount of years with a minimum amount of posts per year. Put an old member as the Moderator of the area.... Just an idea. There are some founding members who don't contribute at all to this site any longer, and it is a shame.

There is more, but I have work to do. I think everyone wants to see this site survive and prosper, and get back to talking about guns, like how cool that Tavor is in the classifieds.

 

[ericlosh]

OK, so your thread is bumped above other for sale threads three times in one day and a fourth when you respond. How is this fair to other sellers who want their ad to be seen, but no one is posting on it? Also, if you get three PMs about round count, why not just reply to all three PMs and then edit the answer into the thread?

this, if i get a question about info i left off, i go edit my ad, and then bump it when im close to my 24hr window.

i agree that the comments can get a little carried away and drown some ads out

also i am against any idea of a post requirement to use the classifieds. That's how i start out on a forum and if im selling something, i want to sell it now, not after a few conversations. Selling here right away got me to stick around. If there's a post requirement, then i typically never go back to a forum which seems counter intuitive to a forum looking to expand. Not sure why that upsets some, if someone here is just here to sell its not like their dumping all over the forum. The admins do a good job of making sure people follow the rules in the market place and as long as that's happening who cares about the post counts? Let people sell, some will become contributing members and those that don't will mind their own business and stick to the classifieds.

Another nice thing about loose restrictions in the classifieds is that there is a bigger market, which means more choice for people looking to buy a gun and save some cash!

I think any attempt at a post requirement for new members would hinder the board's progress.

- - - Updated - - -

Combine Sponsors and Regular Classifieds, Sponsors classifieds are a dead zone. Bold the Sponsors posts or something, but don't give them priority or anything.

I do like comments in classifieds, just have some rules to follow. A discussion on a classified ad was a great selling tool for me before they were eliminated. Often instead of selling 1 of an item, I might sell 5 or 6 of an identical item.

As far as moderation, I am not calling anyone specific, and it has been a while since I had a direct conflict with a moderator, but someone has to stand down at some point, the member or the mod - A ban isn't necessarily the best option for either the member or the board. I know when I was banned, the moderator just didn't understand what I meant by my comment, it was taken out of context. Lots of things can be fixed with some civil conversation, not trying to one up the member and/or mod.

Maybe a free for all area for the older members... Some of us have been around a while and wear big boy pants and might like an area for members with X amount of years with a minimum amount of posts per year. Put an old member as the Moderator of the area.... Just an idea. There are some founding members who don't contribute at all to this site any longer, and it is a shame.

There is more, but I have work to do. I think everyone wants to see this site survive and prosper, and get back to talking about guns, like how cool that Tavor is in the classifieds.

good idea, the sponsers being orange already let you know its a sponser and they would get a bit more traffic which is fair and if i dont want to look at a sponser ad, i just avoid the orange names

 

[MyTFAL]

Comments in the classified, hasn't been the same forum since they were disallowed.

 

[kcinnick]

OK, so your thread is bumped above other for sale threads three times in one day and a fourth when you respond. How is this fair to other sellers who want their ad to be seen, but no one is posting on it? Also, if you get three PMs about round count, why not just reply to all three PMs and then edit the answer into the thread?

Who cares if his thread gets bumped more than once in 24 hours as long as he isn't doing it himself or a buddy by making stupid "great gun" comments. If you have an interesting item, and it generates interests, it should stay towards the top.

I also second whoever mentioned it is a PITA to reply to a PM on a phone. So much easier to post a reply in the thread. I was eating dinner at my Dad's house tonight and I had to go get my laptop out of the car to reply to a PM.

 

[AustinBR]

I'm all for comments back in the classified section. I surf here on a smart phone and answering PM's and such on it isn't fun. Let's keep it simple.

You should try Tapatalk.

No one said anything about my thread being bumped 4 times. I post a for sale ad, you comment by asking, "Round count" I reply. I count two bumps there. The other people can read that their question was asked and answered.

Yes I can reply to 3 PMs then edit my post. 3 PMs will also mean 3 email notifications for me. I can edit my post but is it really efficient to continue to go back in and edit a post each time a question is asked? Wouldn't it be simpler to open up the thread and let people have a discussion there, hence the purpose of a discussion board

Many people who would PM you would ask the question in the thread anyway even if it has not been answered yet, leading to more bumps. Is it really that much of an inconvenience to reply to PMs and then to edit the answer into the original post in the thread?

I don't see how editing a post with an answer is any different than replying to people's questions in it. One thing that needs to be considered is keeping the marketplace fair for everyone.

Combine Sponsors and Regular Classifieds, Sponsors classifieds are a dead zone. Bold the Sponsors posts or something, but don't give them priority or anything.

I do like comments in classifieds, just have some rules to follow. A discussion on a classified ad was a great selling tool for me before they were eliminated. Often instead of selling 1 of an item, I might sell 5 or 6 of an identical item.

As far as moderation, I am not calling anyone specific, and it has been a while since I had a direct conflict with a moderator, but someone has to stand down at some point, the member or the mod - A ban isn't necessarily the best option for either the member or the board. I know when I was banned, the moderator just didn't understand what I meant by my comment, it was taken out of context. Lots of things can be fixed with some civil conversation, not trying to one up the member and/or mod.

Maybe a free for all area for the older members... Some of us have been around a while and wear big boy pants and might like an area for members with X amount of years with a minimum amount of posts per year. Put an old member as the Moderator of the area.... Just an idea. There are some founding members who don't contribute at all to this site any longer, and it is a shame.

There is more, but I have work to do. I think everyone wants to see this site survive and prosper, and get back to talking about guns, like how cool that Tavor is in the classifieds.

Now that is what I am talking about for a list of suggestions! Excellent job. I like your idea for combining sponsors and regular classifieds, but I have a few problems with it. Sponsor ads can and will often get lost in the regular classifieds section. People DO view the ads in the sponsors section right now. Also, we are currently allowing sponsors to post their ads in the regular classifieds in addition to the sponsor only section. Would you prefer to just nix it and have them combined? If other sponsors voted on this and liked it, I would certainly be OK with it. I think having a specific section benefits y'all more though.

What kind of rules are you thinking? We need to keep it fair for everyone and give everyone an equal shot at their item being sold.

I agree with your comments on moderation. Much has changed since your past interactions with the mods. All of those issues are pretty much gone. No one has been banned in the past three weeks. We really don't ban many people. There are MUCH better ways at handling every situation, and overall, the changes we have made have been very receptive. The infraction system is SUPER working. The mods haven't been handing out many infractions lately either. The warning / rule reminder aspect of it works much better. Pretty much what happens is whenever someone messes up or does something wrong, they get a PM with a copy / quote of their post with an explanation of what was wrong about it. Below that are links to the rules and a reminder / plea to read them over again. Most of the time people respond to the PMs with something like "oh, my bad, thanks for pointing it out, have a good day."

Still on the moderator comment, I want to address something to everyone. I know a few rumors have gone around that since I came in that we have banned a ton of people. That is actually not true. Since I have been an admin, less than ten people have been banned. I think the number is somewhere around four, but it doesn't really matter. The point is that we aren't banning people. It doesn't help us and it doesn't really help the forum. Also, someone commented at some point that lots of posts are being deleted. That is not true either. I looked over the moderator logs from the past three months, and 97% of the deleted posts and threads are in the Marketplace for Marketplace Rule Violations. The other 3% are things outside of the marketplace that are blatantly against the rules and if left shown to the public would damage the site.

I like your idea for an area only for long term members. Anyone want to comment on this?

I had an idea myself that I would like for y'all to discuss. How about a NEW forum in the Marketplace where ANY item can be sold. This forum would have the normal rules and maybe a few tailored for it specifically, but the exception would be that people could reply to ads. Sellers would have a choice of posting in that new forum OR in the current styled marketplace, but NOT both. Thoughts?

 

[jjb518]

Maybe make the home page customizable for your own personal interests. For example: I would personally like to be able to put certain forums (firearms classifieds, parts and ammo, general classifieds, etc.) in a tab on the top of the page like where the home button is. That would just make it easier for each person to make the site easier to navigate for their own personal needs and interests.

 

[S&W4ME]

Many people who would PM you would ask the question in the thread anyway even if it has not been answered yet, leading to more bumps. Is it really that much of an inconvenience to reply to PMs and then to edit the answer into the original post in the thread?

?

You asked for suggestions. I gave you one and judging by the responses from the other members who posted here the rest of us seem to be in agreement. Do with it whatever you want.

 

[AustinBR]

Maybe make the home page customizable for your own personal interests. For example: I would personally like to be able to put certain forums (firearms classifieds, parts and ammo, general classifieds, etc.) in a tab on the top of the page like where the home button is. That would just make it easier for each person to make the site easier to navigate for their own personal needs and interests.

Hmm. Interesting. Right now you can compress forums that you don't want to see by clicking the little arrow at the top right of the category. I don't think adding custom, per user, settings like that is really feasible at this time with the current software we are running.

 

[AustinBR]

You asked for suggestions. I gave you one and judging by the responses from the other members who posted here the rest of us seem to be in agreement. Do with it whatever you want.

I asked for suggestions and for discussions of those suggestions. I am open to the idea of comments in the marketplace, but we have to figure out how to make it work. It didn't work before and that is why it was removed. I am not attacking you by any means...I am just being very straightforward with my concerns in hopes that you and the supporters of the idea can come up with a compromise or means to make the suggestion work.

 

[S&W4ME]

I asked for suggestions and for discussions of those suggestions. I am open to the idea of comments in the marketplace, but we have to figure out how to make it work. It didn't work before and that is why it was removed. I am not attacking you by any means...I am just being very straightforward with my concerns in hopes that you and the supporters of the idea can come up with a compromise or means to make the suggestion work.

If I may use another website as an example, take a look at the S&W Forum. That site has national exposure with quite a bit more traffic than you have here. Their classified section is pretty straight forward, you need a pic, description, etc and are allowed to bump once every 24 hrs. People can comment and the seller can reply to comments as they arise. No outside discussion is allowed, no comments either negative or positive. No "great gun" no "your prices are too high" etc. If someone makes such a comment a moderator will remove the comment and give the party an infraction. Too many infractions and you get a "time out"

Since you already have a mod or two that are pretty gung ho about passing out infractions moderation of the comments should be quite simple. You allow comments yet keep everyone in check. A pretty simple solution if you ask me.

 

[Mojo Rider]

The past problems with comments in the classifieds now seem so trivial compared with the current problems caused by not allowing comments in the classifieds. If we promise to never complain about the comments in the classifieds will you please bring them back?