Are you asking what 9mm round I use in my carry guns? If that is the question I use the 147gr Winchester Ranger Bonded.
Im not sure how your quantifying that and I couldn't disagree more but thanks for offering an opinion.
No man, you clearly forgot that shotguns have more "knockdown power."I respectfully disagree. That may be true when standing still and shooting a few shots at a stationary paper target on a one way range, but the reality is that assailants don’t stand still, they often come in groups of two or more, and they shoot back.
At best a shotgun will hold an average of 8 rounds and reloading is slow and clumsy- without adding stress to the equation. Overall, shotguns are long, heavy, unwieldy, low capacity and have an obnoxious level of felt recoil. Further, shotgun ballistics are not particularly predictable- it is not unusual for at least one pellet of 00 buck to miss a human size target at 20 yards. My personal discipline and the basic rules of guns safety dictate that I am responsible for every shot that I take, and therefore, I want to be sure that I know where it is going. That is not necessarily possible with a shotgun.
The amount of time it takes me to put three well placed 5.56 rounds into the A zone of an IPSC target at 25 yards is negligibly longer than pulling the trigger on a shotgun. I can quickly move from target to target, and track moving targets, without massive recoil pushing me around. Upon depletion of my 30 rounds, I can have the gun loaded with another 30 rounds in just a few seconds, and barely have to move the gun from my shoulder in doing so.
Unfortunately, a lot of folks grew up with their grandfathers telling them that shotguns are the best weapon to have inside a house, "because you can just point it down the hallway and pull the trigger." I think that we can all agree that military and law enforcement personnel are the trailblazers for civilians in terms of personal protection and offensive action. Try this: do a Google image search of "Swat entry team" and count how many shotguns versus rifles you see.
I’ve done relatively exhaustive training (18,000 to 20,000 rounds) with shotguns, rifles, carbines and pistols. My conclusion is that shotguns are fun to shoot and they are good for busting doors and hunting birds and squirrels. Outside of that, give me my AR any day. By the way, I disagree with VG, in that I would take my Glock over a shotgun in a home defense scenario every time.
It's common sense. Go fire both at a paper target within 25 yards and see how much more damage there is with a shotgun than with a rifle. To me, rifles are not very good close quarters weapons - a lot of them made to be shot out at 300 yards and further. Shotguns are not (sure, you could put some slugs in it and make 100 yard shots all day provided you're familiar with slug ballistics at range, but who really uses a shotgun and not a rifle seriously for that purpose?). They put more lead on target within 25 yards than a rifle ever will, ever. There will never be one gun for everything. With that being said, nothing is perfect - I've heard stories of buckshot skipping off of people's skulls - but you just have to be logical about it. Rifles are for longer ranges, shotguns are not.
It's common sense. Go fire both at a paper target within 25 yards and see how much more damage there is with a shotgun than with a rifle. To me, rifles are not very good close quarters weapons - a lot of them made to be shot out at 300 yards and further. Shotguns are not (sure, you could put some slugs in it and make 100 yard shots all day provided you're familiar with slug ballistics at range, but who really uses a shotgun and not a rifle seriously for that purpose?). They put more lead on target within 25 yards than a rifle ever will, ever. There will never be one gun for everything. With that being said, nothing is perfect - I've heard stories of buckshot skipping off of people's skulls - but you just have to be logical about it. Rifles are for longer ranges, shotguns are not.
Isn't the point to have a good HD round for 7 yards or so that ideally takes out the threat, but does not over penetrate? I have only met VG a couple of times, but he strikes me as someone who uses evidence. I don't have the setup to test 5.56 vs 00 buck, but for HD, I would think 7 to 10 yards you want it to stop a person, at 25 yards, especially in a house, you would not want it still going through walls and such.
Am on the fence myself. Like the stopping power of the 00 Buck. But, if the 5.56 stops the threat, shooting from a 30 round mag semi auto vs a pump shotgun, I might change my mind.
Don't take my word for it. I did not always feel the way that I do. Get your hands dirty- take some classes and put some rounds down range.
I still have an 870, and I think it's fun and great for a very narrow field of jobs. Shooting up a garbage dump is one of them. Home defense is not.
Hmm, maybe a certain Gorilla might make up a class, half day shotgun, half day carbine... HD type class.
Almost all carbine classes I have seen lose me when they talk about transitioning to the sidearm... I am not LEO or military, and if I need to drop the AR and draw my handgun, well, I am screwed.
I don't know why they lose you. Best case you learn a skill that may prove life saving, worst case you learn a skill that you never have to use. In either case you learn a skill. I think it's a huge hole in ones preparedness and mindset to delineate skill at arms as those I need and those that are for other people. I prefer to think all the skills are for all the people.
I agree, learning is great! More the better. But, I only have so much $ and time, so I try to take classes/training that I will be likely to need. If I take a carbine class, I want to learn about carbines, pistol class the pistol. I can't think of a good reason in my situation to drop the AR and go with a handgun.
Love training, just don't see that as economical for me. Have no problem with it, just not what I am looking for.
I think you misunderstand the context in which transitions are taught. It accounts for a fraction of the training time. I don't teach it in our level 1 classes but I would question the veracity of a level 2 or beyond class that didn't.
transitions for home defense? hmmm.... i always expected to defend the home in my pj's. I'm thinking I need to put a war belt in the bedroom rather than just a holstered handgun.
I wouldn't recommend anyone use the .300BO Subs for trying to kill people. They aren't particularly effective. I was talking about then 110-125gr supersonic options. The data exist. I will cobble together some interior walls in the near future and do some ad hoc testing.