Home Defense Guns

[LACamper]

Thanks anyway....

I wonder how many would grab their deer rifle (w/ scope cranked to 9x!) to defend the home!

i wonder how the accelerator rounds (saboted sub caliber loads) would penetrate?

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

I dunno. Id just shoot 5.56

 

[323MAR]

Are you asking what 9mm round I use in my carry guns? If that is the question I use the 147gr Winchester Ranger Bonded.

I use the same in my P2000SK.

 

[samdajellybeenie]

Im not sure how your quantifying that and I couldn't disagree more but thanks for offering an opinion.

It's common sense. Go fire both at a paper target within 25 yards and see how much more damage there is with a shotgun than with a rifle. To me, rifles are not very good close quarters weapons - a lot of them made to be shot out at 300 yards and further. Shotguns are not (sure, you could put some slugs in it and make 100 yard shots all day provided you're familiar with slug ballistics at range, but who really uses a shotgun and not a rifle seriously for that purpose?). They put more lead on target within 25 yards than a rifle ever will, ever. There will never be one gun for everything. With that being said, nothing is perfect - I've heard stories of buckshot skipping off of people's skulls - but you just have to be logical about it. Rifles are for longer ranges, shotguns are not.

 

[JCcypress]

I respectfully disagree. That may be true when standing still and shooting a few shots at a stationary paper target on a one way range, but the reality is that assailants don’t stand still, they often come in groups of two or more, and they shoot back.

At best a shotgun will hold an average of 8 rounds and reloading is slow and clumsy- without adding stress to the equation. Overall, shotguns are long, heavy, unwieldy, low capacity and have an obnoxious level of felt recoil. Further, shotgun ballistics are not particularly predictable- it is not unusual for at least one pellet of 00 buck to miss a human size target at 20 yards. My personal discipline and the basic rules of guns safety dictate that I am responsible for every shot that I take, and therefore, I want to be sure that I know where it is going. That is not necessarily possible with a shotgun.

The amount of time it takes me to put three well placed 5.56 rounds into the A zone of an IPSC target at 25 yards is negligibly longer than pulling the trigger on a shotgun. I can quickly move from target to target, and track moving targets, without massive recoil pushing me around. Upon depletion of my 30 rounds, I can have the gun loaded with another 30 rounds in just a few seconds, and barely have to move the gun from my shoulder in doing so.

Unfortunately, a lot of folks grew up with their grandfathers telling them that shotguns are the best weapon to have inside a house, "because you can just point it down the hallway and pull the trigger." I think that we can all agree that military and law enforcement personnel are the trailblazers for civilians in terms of personal protection and offensive action. Try this: do a Google image search of "Swat entry team" and count how many shotguns versus rifles you see.

I’ve done a fair amount of training (18,000 to 20,000 rounds) with shotguns, rifles, carbines and pistols. My conclusion is that shotguns are fun to shoot and they are good for busting doors and hunting birds and squirrels. Outside of that, give me my AR any day. By the way, I disagree with VG, in that I would take my Glock over a shotgun in a home defense scenario every time.


Edited: I won't claim to have done "exhaustive" training.

 

[petingrass]

I respectfully disagree. That may be true when standing still and shooting a few shots at a stationary paper target on a one way range, but the reality is that assailants don’t stand still, they often come in groups of two or more, and they shoot back.

At best a shotgun will hold an average of 8 rounds and reloading is slow and clumsy- without adding stress to the equation. Overall, shotguns are long, heavy, unwieldy, low capacity and have an obnoxious level of felt recoil. Further, shotgun ballistics are not particularly predictable- it is not unusual for at least one pellet of 00 buck to miss a human size target at 20 yards. My personal discipline and the basic rules of guns safety dictate that I am responsible for every shot that I take, and therefore, I want to be sure that I know where it is going. That is not necessarily possible with a shotgun.

The amount of time it takes me to put three well placed 5.56 rounds into the A zone of an IPSC target at 25 yards is negligibly longer than pulling the trigger on a shotgun. I can quickly move from target to target, and track moving targets, without massive recoil pushing me around. Upon depletion of my 30 rounds, I can have the gun loaded with another 30 rounds in just a few seconds, and barely have to move the gun from my shoulder in doing so.

Unfortunately, a lot of folks grew up with their grandfathers telling them that shotguns are the best weapon to have inside a house, "because you can just point it down the hallway and pull the trigger." I think that we can all agree that military and law enforcement personnel are the trailblazers for civilians in terms of personal protection and offensive action. Try this: do a Google image search of "Swat entry team" and count how many shotguns versus rifles you see.

I’ve done relatively exhaustive training (18,000 to 20,000 rounds) with shotguns, rifles, carbines and pistols. My conclusion is that shotguns are fun to shoot and they are good for busting doors and hunting birds and squirrels. Outside of that, give me my AR any day. By the way, I disagree with VG, in that I would take my Glock over a shotgun in a home defense scenario every time.

No man, you clearly forgot that shotguns have more "knockdown power."

 

[Fred_G]

It's common sense. Go fire both at a paper target within 25 yards and see how much more damage there is with a shotgun than with a rifle. To me, rifles are not very good close quarters weapons - a lot of them made to be shot out at 300 yards and further. Shotguns are not (sure, you could put some slugs in it and make 100 yard shots all day provided you're familiar with slug ballistics at range, but who really uses a shotgun and not a rifle seriously for that purpose?). They put more lead on target within 25 yards than a rifle ever will, ever. There will never be one gun for everything. With that being said, nothing is perfect - I've heard stories of buckshot skipping off of people's skulls - but you just have to be logical about it. Rifles are for longer ranges, shotguns are not.

Isn't the point to have a good HD round for 7 yards or so that ideally takes out the threat, but does not over penetrate? I have only met VG a couple of times, but he strikes me as someone who uses evidence. I don't have the setup to test 5.56 vs 00 buck, but for HD, I would think 7 to 10 yards you want it to stop a person, at 25 yards, especially in a house, you would not want it still going through walls and such.

Am on the fence myself. Like the stopping power of the 00 Buck. But, if the 5.56 stops the threat, shooting from a 30 round mag semi auto vs a pump shotgun, I might change my mind.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

It's common sense. Go fire both at a paper target within 25 yards and see how much more damage there is with a shotgun than with a rifle. To me, rifles are not very good close quarters weapons - a lot of them made to be shot out at 300 yards and further. Shotguns are not (sure, you could put some slugs in it and make 100 yard shots all day provided you're familiar with slug ballistics at range, but who really uses a shotgun and not a rifle seriously for that purpose?). They put more lead on target within 25 yards than a rifle ever will, ever. There will never be one gun for everything. With that being said, nothing is perfect - I've heard stories of buckshot skipping off of people's skulls - but you just have to be logical about it. Rifles are for longer ranges, shotguns are not.

Fortunately I don't know of anybody that's been assaulted in their home by paper targets. My that logic #9 Shot would be the most lethal thing you can fire from the shoulder, it's not. All of the people doing live CQB for a living at a high level are doing it with a riflenfornall of the reasons already listed. Without qualifying or quantifying your expirence it's difficult to know what you don't know. I think you would find of you spent sometime shooting both platforms you would quickly see why the rifle is the better option.

 

[JCcypress]

Isn't the point to have a good HD round for 7 yards or so that ideally takes out the threat, but does not over penetrate? I have only met VG a couple of times, but he strikes me as someone who uses evidence. I don't have the setup to test 5.56 vs 00 buck, but for HD, I would think 7 to 10 yards you want it to stop a person, at 25 yards, especially in a house, you would not want it still going through walls and such.

Am on the fence myself. Like the stopping power of the 00 Buck. But, if the 5.56 stops the threat, shooting from a 30 round mag semi auto vs a pump shotgun, I might change my mind.

Don't take my word for it. I did not always feel the way that I do. Get your hands dirty- take some classes and put some rounds down range.

I still have an 870, and I think it's fun and great for a very narrow field of jobs. Shooting up a garbage dump is one of them. Home defense is not.

 

[Fred_G]

Don't take my word for it. I did not always feel the way that I do. Get your hands dirty- take some classes and put some rounds down range.

I still have an 870, and I think it's fun and great for a very narrow field of jobs. Shooting up a garbage dump is one of them. Home defense is not.

Hmm, maybe a certain Gorilla might make up a class, half day shotgun, half day carbine... HD type class.

Almost all carbine classes I have seen lose me when they talk about transitioning to the sidearm... I am not LEO or military, and if I need to drop the AR and draw my handgun, well, I am screwed.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Hmm, maybe a certain Gorilla might make up a class, half day shotgun, half day carbine... HD type class.

Almost all carbine classes I have seen lose me when they talk about transitioning to the sidearm... I am not LEO or military, and if I need to drop the AR and draw my handgun, well, I am screwed.

I don't know why they lose you. Best case you learn a skill that may prove life saving, worst case you learn a skill that you never have to use. In either case you learn a skill. I think it's a huge hole in ones preparedness and mindset to delineate skill at arms as those I need and those that are for other people. I prefer to think all the skills are for all the people.

 

[Fred_G]

I don't know why they lose you. Best case you learn a skill that may prove life saving, worst case you learn a skill that you never have to use. In either case you learn a skill. I think it's a huge hole in ones preparedness and mindset to delineate skill at arms as those I need and those that are for other people. I prefer to think all the skills are for all the people.

I agree, learning is great! More the better. But, I only have so much $ and time, so I try to take classes/training that I will be likely to need. If I take a carbine class, I want to learn about carbines, pistol class the pistol. I can't think of a good reason in my situation to drop the AR and go with a handgun.

Love training, just don't see that as economical for me. Have no problem with it, just not what I am looking for.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

I agree, learning is great! More the better. But, I only have so much $ and time, so I try to take classes/training that I will be likely to need. If I take a carbine class, I want to learn about carbines, pistol class the pistol. I can't think of a good reason in my situation to drop the AR and go with a handgun.

Love training, just don't see that as economical for me. Have no problem with it, just not what I am looking for.

I think you misunderstand the context in which transitions are taught. It accounts for a fraction of the training time. I don't teach it in our level 1 classes but I would question the veracity of a level 2 or beyond class that didn't.

 

[Fred_G]

I think you misunderstand the context in which transitions are taught. It accounts for a fraction of the training time. I don't teach it in our level 1 classes but I would question the veracity of a level 2 or beyond class that didn't.

Ahh, now that make more sense. Just going from what I have seen online, did not search your site. For advanced stuff, heck yeah, I can see it. Advanced carbine is not something I plan on. A basic class, heck yeah!

 

[kz45]

I'm going to add my two cents, I've only taken one class with VG and it was Med with a little pistol, that being said I shoot a lot of three gun, out of the three guns shotgun is by far the one people struggle with! I've seen it all! From guys who knew what they were doing until the timer started (stress) I know how to run my SG (Benelli)!! Give me a rifle or pistol any day!!

 

[Request Dust Off]

Terminal Balllistics of round balls just aren't going to measure up. Getting hit with a .380 round ball is not the same as a .380, 9mm or .38 bullet. I also have a .177 air rifle that puts the same size hole in paper if not bigger than a .17 Remington. You don't want a wound from a .17 Remington over the .177 wadcutter. Sectional Density, velocity and bullet construction = rifles tear **** up.

Shotguns also don't just get pointed down a hallway and blast every perp in sight. They don't spread out and kill like people think.

My first love was shotguns. Why? because you can hunt anything in our AO with one. Skeet is fun also.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/ - It has been a while but the did have some penetration stuff - I ain't promising it is perfect.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/tag/original-chapters/

I know a guy that shot 2 guys with a .223 in a SD situation. It worked. Well in terms of terminal ballistics. A lot of bad came out of it.

 

[323MAR]

Come to think of it, accurate double-taps are very possible with a AR. Multiple shock trauma can be very quickly administered without having to dump an entire mag.
I like my Glock 20 10mm as a primary for home, but this conversation is causing me to rethink that.

 

[LACamper]

transitions for home defense? hmmm.... i always expected to defend the home in my pj's. I'm thinking I need to put a war belt in the bedroom rather than just a holstered handgun.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

transitions for home defense? hmmm.... i always expected to defend the home in my pj's. I'm thinking I need to put a war belt in the bedroom rather than just a holstered handgun.

While I think your taking the transition talk out of context, a war belt isn't a terrible idea it's far easier and quicker to don than a normal holster.

 

[ajridgedell]

I wouldn't recommend anyone use the .300BO Subs for trying to kill people. They aren't particularly effective. I was talking about then 110-125gr supersonic options. The data exist. I will cobble together some interior walls in the near future and do some ad hoc testing.

If serious about doing some tests soon I have a good bit of 1/2 and 5/8 sheet-rock you can have left over from my building. I'm in Loranger, hop skip and a jump from Robert.